I have seen so many blogs and posts on various online venues regarding the very heated debate within the Hellenic Community regarding Hellenismos, Hellenic Polytheism, and Hellenic Paganism.
It has stretched into criticisms of various groups like Neokoroi and NeosAlexandria presenting themselves (deliberately, or not), as Reconstructionist Organizations, when in fact, they are not.
While I was not surprised at the backlash, I was disheartened by it.
I have been pondering the reasons for the backlash and anger from those that have participated on this Board and other online venues. I have read the criticism and the attacks on Timothy Alexander by many members of Neokoroi, especially…and I realized that this is no longer a debate, but a conflict. Is Tim warm and fuzzy? Hell no. Is what he says unsubstantiated and without truth? I don’t believe so. He makes valid points, speaks the truth, and actually shows with specific examples the problems with the false advertising people are using to promote their sites.
I’ve seen quite a bit of “it’s not the message, it’s how he says it that’s the problem.” If he speaks the truth, why is it a problem?
So….I decided to delve into the true meaning of conflict, and get to the root of the matter.
I found an interesting article on Conflict, and the many components that go along with it.
Here *bolding mine*:
Conflicts occur when people (or other parties) perceive that, as a consequence of a disagreement, there is a threat to their needs, interests or concerns. Although conflict is a normal part of organization life, providing numerous opportunities for growth through improved understanding and insight, there is a tendency to view conflict as a negative experience caused by abnormally difficult circumstances. Disputants tend to perceive limited options and finite resources available in seeking solutions, rather than multiple possibilities that may exist ‘outside the box’ in which we are problem-solving.
A few points are worth reiterating before proceeding:
A conflict is more than a mere disagreement – it is a situation in which people perceive a threat (physical, emotional, power, status, etc.) to their well-being. As such, it is a meaningful experience in people’s lives, not to be shrugged off by a mere, “it will pass…”
Participants in conflicts tend to respond on the basis of their perceptions of the situation, rather than an objective review of it. As such, people filter their perceptions (and reactions) through their values, culture, beliefs, information, experience, gender, and other variables. Conflict responses are both filled with ideas and feelings that can be very strong and powerful guides to our sense of possible solutions.
As in any problem, conflicts contain substantive, procedural, and psychological dimensions to be negotiated. In order to best understand the threat perceived by those engaged in a conflict, we need to consider all of these dimensions.
Conflicts are normal experiences within the work environment. They are also, to a large degree, predictable and expectable situations that naturally arise as we go about managing complex and stressful projects in which we are significantly invested. As such, if we develop procedures for identifying conflicts likely to arise, as well as systems through which we can constructively manage conflicts, we may be able to discover new opportunities to transform conflict into a productive learning experience.
Creative problem-solving strategies are essential to positive approaches to conflict management. We need to transform the situation from one in which it is ‘my way or the highway’ into one in which we entertain new possibilities that have been otherwise elusive.
Linkage for those interested:
http://www.ohrd.wisc.edu/onlinetraining/resolution/aboutwhatisit.htm
This is my take on what has happened, and what is continuing to happen unless we do some conflict resolution:
Things had been going along swimmingly for awhile. Any conflict between other members on Yahoo Lists, Neokoroi, and former members of Hellenion had largely subsided…people were doing their own thing, and nobody was really fighting about anything. Sure, there was the occasional spat, but that just keeps things interesting.
Enter Timothy Alexander…a guy no one had heard from before until he broke out with three books on Hellenismos in a year’s time. Was he vocal on the lists, a big player on LiveJournal, a part of the leadership of Neokoroi or Hellenion? Nope.
But…here’s this guy who wrote three books. He’s intelligent, well spoken, and knows what he’s talking about. He owns one of the top rated Pagan Boards on the internet, and has more traffic in one day than some of these lists get in a year.
And damn…he even put up a Hellenic Polytheist website with WordPress that has some fantastic instructional and spiritual blogs on it.
Well, there’s the threat that gets peoples’ backs up. Who is this guy horning in on the Hellenic Community? How dare he actually write some books and start being vocal? What right does he have? Who the hell *is* he?
Well, he got out there and told you all who he is and what he stood for.
And there is a threat again….those that went along thinking they were Recon and practicing Hellenismos were told in no uncertain terms, that in Timothy’s opinion…they were not. I can understand why that would threaten and upset people. It makes people look at their very identity.
Tim reads some of Sannion’s stuff, and you know…it’s off. It’s contradictory from article to article, and in some cases, goes against the core of what Hellenismos *is*. Tim says so, shows the contradictions, writes blogs challenging him, and a conflict occurs. Instead of using that conflict to reach an understanding, Sannion calls him a douche (See, Yes Virginia, There is a Zeus), insults and demeans me because I stand up with him, and then encourages others to personally attack both him and myself. Why? Because on some level he was threatened with what we had to say. And when people feel that their very identity is threatened, they lash out.
Because people are basing things on their own perceptions of what is being read, they react according to their own experiences, fears, insecurities, and so on.
It’s like two kids at the schoolyard…you push me, I’ll push you back.
The difference is….no one is out to hurt the much loved Sannion or erl_queen. Yes, they have both been targeted…not because of who they are, but because of what they say that is in direct contradiction as to what Hellenic Reconstruction actually is.
The responses I have seen are mostly in defense of *them*, and not the religion. While I admire and understand loyalty to a friend (I wouldn’t be writing this if I didn’t have that same protectiveness of Tim)…defending a friend at the expense of what is *right* does not make sense to me. I don’t care if Tim is my best friend…if he is wrong, I will tell him so. And I have….just not regarding what he does regarding Hellenismos, and what he continues to do.
Just today I was on a Pagan Forum Board and I made a correction to a thread called “Hellenic Reconstructionist Organizations.” Neokoroi was mentioned. I came in and said that it *was not*.
While everyone agreed that it wasn’t, it devolved into an attack on Tim. The hilarious thing was that he didn’t even post on that thread. I’m not even sure he’s aware it exists. Why the attack then? Because Neokoroi was described by him as an interfaith group that had many Neopagans on it. People got up in arms because somehow Neopagan is a bad word when you want to be seen as a Recon. That is not Tim’s problem. Not once has he said that Neopagans are bad people…only that they are not Recon. So whose problem is it then? The people that felt threatened by what he said.
If we could all cast off our fear and actually read what is said with an objective eye, perhaps then there would be more meaningful conversation.
I have tried very hard not to personally attack anyone. I have refrained from calling people names, cyberbullying, or anything else. I will not allow myself to feel threatened, because nothing I’ve read from anyone actually is a rational reasoned debate by anyone who has spoken regarding what Tim has to say.
Emotional arguements are all well and good, but those are coming (ultimately) from fear, not from reason. Stomping off in a huff and then going to somebody’s blog to join in the bashfest is hardly proving that Hellenic ethics are part of what you (the general you) believe to be true about the Hellenic Tradition.
People want to make it about Tim…but alas, it’s about *you*.
Now…I’m not asking anyone to like Tim. I’m not even asking you to respect him. Quite frankly, I’m not sure he gives a rat’s ass what *anyone* thinks of him. I actually think that’s good. He stays on point, and will continue to speak out to protect the integrity of Hellenismos. And…if someone puts it out there, and he disagrees with it…you can bet he will say so…publicly. No closed doors or private forums where everything is hidden. I admire him for that.
Unless people stop the defensiveness and knee jerk responses, there will never be an understanding. There will never be free flowing communication and a exchange of ideas. There will never be a bridge.
Everyone will just continue to be angry, and we will continue to defend Hellenismos, and this will never end…because I will tell you right now that Tim and I will never, ever stop challenging Neopaganism and New Age infiltration in Hellenismos.
We can agree to disagree, we can talk about it, and we can even debate heatedly.
What we cannot continue to do is what I see happening all over the internet in regard to the personal attacks I see. If you cannot debate what the man brings forward in a blog or post, then keep your mouth shut.
Your emotional responses only show your fear.
For being the minority, we sure have the majority pissed. That tells me that more conversation, more debate, more communication needs to occur. Meaningful communication.
I am more than willing. Tim has been trying to communicate. What about you? Are you ready to put aside your insults and talks of spitting on him, calling him a douche, taking him out of context so you have some validation for your attacks?
Are you ready to address the issues with an eye toward resolving them?
Because yes…there are issues, and the status quo is not going to do any of us any good when Hellenic Polytheism and Hellenic Reconstruction no longer mean anything at all.
And yeah….this is all my opinion….and I’m sure that someone will be pissed off by something I said. That was not my intent…but you know…I had to try.
Thank you for reading.
Scampian
on Jun 19th, 2008
@ 12:51 pm:
Very good post.
Cara
on Jun 20th, 2008
@ 7:50 pm:
Actually, it IS the message that people have a problem with.
Sorry Twinkle, but I didn’t read too much of the rest of your post since you are starting out with an incorrect assumption and building from there.
Tim started this pissing match by his repeated name calling, character assignations, and arrogant “decrees” of what is or is not Hellenic Paganism. He did that first and continues to do so. Then when he was approached to talk about this, he refused.
In my short dealings with him, having a conversation with him was close to impossible. It was like he had this set conversation he wanted to have take place, no matter what was being said. His responces had pretty much nothing to do with what was being said, he would make outlandish leaps, he would try to force the conversation into directions that no one was headed to. It was very, very strange. It was a constant exchange of “Wait…what are you talking about?” Up until that point I didn’t know very much about him and was interested in “talking” with him. After that exchange – I have zero interest in ever speaking with him. I’m not the only one with that exact same experience.
I guess if I wanted to be a bit more concise I could just say that I diasagree with many of his views and consider him to be an arrogant jerk who’s unwilling to engage in anything other than a one-sided conversation to boot. *That’s* why he is being mocked and that’s why very few people are really excited to interact with him. There’s just no point.
Cara
Timothy Alexander
on Jun 21st, 2008
@ 9:27 am:
For those interested in knowing what conversation Cara claims I used “name calling, character assignations, and arrogant ‘decrees’ of what is or is not Hellenic Paganism”, please see the comments associated with Yes, Virginia, there is a Zeus.
Neither Cara, nor anyone else disputed the validity of what was written in that blog. They just do not seem to like the audacity of someone challenging something Sannion may have written. Today, no one disputes the statement Neokoroi and Neos Alexandria are not Reconstructionist organizations. People are upset that I am attempting to shatter these groups’ images as Reconstructionist organizations. No one seems to dispute that Sannion and Oinokhoe both have gone Eclectic and departed from what one would recognize as Hellenismos or Hellenic Polytheism. People are upset that I may shatter their images as being practitioners of Hellenismos.
A religion is, by definition, a group that shares a common moral code, practices, values, institutions, traditions, rituals, texts, and a core belief. Without these characteristics, there is no religion. The spread of false information by anyone who claims identity with any group is wrong, not just with religion. Analyzing information and the enforcement of right behavior is the action undertaken by any responsible group. This happens at every level of society and involves any collection of people unified by a set of beliefs, values, or purpose.
Once a group or individual gives up their anonymity, and begins promoting and educating people on what is Hellenismos, Reconstruction, or anything else for that matter, they have opened themselves up to scrutiny. It is their responsibility to represent themselves properly and what they do, and it is their responsibility to disseminate accurate information regarding the subjects they claim to be an authoritative source.
Twinkle
on Jun 21st, 2008
@ 1:00 pm:
Hi Cara!
I remember that conversation you had with Tim very well, and I ust went back and read your exchange with him.
In all honesty, I think that your responses were rather emotion based, and didn’t really address any of the points Tim presented. When he pulled you back on topic and tried to get you to debate the actual points, you became rather irritated and left.
I remember when I first met Tim years ago….I thought he was an arrogant jerk, too. Really, I did.
I stomped off in a huff and thought he was insensitive and rude. I disliked him immensely and wanted nothing more to do with him.
Then I sat back and thought about it, and realized that my emotional responses had to do with the fact that I couldn’t debate him. I couldn’t disprove or logically argue *anything* he said, and any emotional response I used, thinking it was on point, was quickly and easily swatted to the side.
So…instead of hating him, I started reading and listening. I started researching what he said….and in all honesty….I did it to try to prove him wrong. In the end, I never could.
I did, through my research, find enough to debate him a time or two, and we’ve had some horrible, knock down drag out debates. I have vehemently disagreed with him more than once…and came out of it rather bruised and battered because I wanted to *win*, not because I wanted to be *right*.
Bruised egos are no justification for personal attacks, and if you are using that as a defense or even an explanation, then I would have to tell you that that is an emotional argument that doesn’t mean a whole lot to me, when our ethics encourage us to act better.
Tim is an excellent debator. If you want to engage, then you had better be as well. Know your stuff, cite your sources, and be reasoned. Any sort of emotional based argument baed on nothing but *what you feel* will get you what you deserve for not thinking it through.
And that is not Tim’s issue. I wished it had been way back when I had problems with him….but it wasn’t, it was mine.
Once again, it seems that you want to be mad because you don’t like him. Well, you don’t have to like him….but if you can’t logically and reasonably state what your issues are with what he has to *say* about Hellenismos and other issues like Neokoroi and NeosAlexandria, then you’re not standing on anything with substance.
Can you say that Neos Alexandria and Neokoroi are Recon organizations? Can you say that Sannion and Erl_queen are not eclectic and state your reasons why?
Do you believe that it is OK to allow people to misrepresent their organizations (whether deliberate or not0?
Do you think it’s OK to have two people in the community speak on the behalf of Hellenismos when they don’t practice it, and have moved off into something else entirely?
Because this is what Tim is talking about….and if you would realize that instead of being all bent that your friends got challenged, you might actually understand *why* he does what he does.
Cara
on Jun 26th, 2008
@ 9:46 pm:
Actually I’m not mad. Twinkle…you are starting from another false premise and building up from there again – so pretty much your entire post is off base. This isn’t about me being emotional or all butt-hurt about someone saying bad things about “my friends”.
It’s about trying to have a discussion with Tim and him having an agenda he was going to push no matter what. He isn’t “good at debating”, he doesn’t have his facts straight. He IS good at totally ignoring what a person says and then trying to re-frame their words into something different so he can get on with his agenda. He cares nothing about having an exchange of thoughts/ideas…only in pontificating. He talks AT you…not with you. And to top it off…he’s either wrong or only right about a very narrow area but misses the wider (and more complete) view.
I don’t enjoy that. Not many people do. It’s not a hard concept to understand. Most everyone else gets it – you don’t. That’s OK. For whatever reason you are emotionally invested in following Tim and that’s none of my business.
I will state this. You and Tim can have the Recon label. Be my guest, I don’t care and neither does anyone else I know. I’m not reconstructing a dead religion…I am actively and daily engaged in a living one. I associate with groups and individuals that do the same thing, have the same goals, and can do so without spreading hate and bitterness as tools to gain power and control. I don’t make a point of ranting over and over and over about how everyone else (except me, of course) is doing it wrong. I don’t announce that certain people aren’t “real” Hellenic Pagans – as if I were some kind of judge and had the authority to do so.
But to answer one of your questions…I do not see that Neokori or NA have ever misrepresented themselves. Both organizations have been very ethical in all of my dealings with them and have been very careful to note sources, UPG, modern content, things from another religion, or things that are not proven or are controversial. They invite debate in a respectful manner and enjoy when things are challenged.
To answer another question, neither Sannion nor Erl Queen (to use LJ names) have ever claimed to speak on behalf of Hellenismos. That would silly for anyone to make that claim as Hellenismos doesn’t have a governing authority. A person could speak on behalf of Hellenion, the only 501C3 Hellenic Pagan group in the USA that I know of, and that person is a part of Neokori and I think NA as well. Any person can speak as a “member” of Hellenismos as a religion. I use “” because there is no official list or rule for membership. If no one can be officially listed, no one can be officially taken off the non-existent list.
As to if Sannion or Erl Queen are recons or eclectic or syncretics…that’s not my business to say or care what they are. I’m not that much of an arrogant ass that I need concern myself with that. I concern myself with what I am…which is a proud member of Hellenion. But note that I don’t claim to speak on Hellenion’s behalf. (also…you can’t prove a negative, nice try on the wording of your question) You would have to ask them how they self-identify and if you wish to dispute that…you need to explain why you think you have the right and the authority to do so. Are you the Sorting Hat from Harry Potter?
Now…that was a longer answer than I really should have bothered to do. Although it is addressed to you, Twinkle, I think it is really for all those who stumble onto this site and get the wrong impression that *this* is what Hellenismos is and that the rants posted on here by Tim are how the Gods’ worshippers think and act to one another.
Timothy Alexander
on Jun 26th, 2008
@ 10:24 pm:
Cara,
How can you have no interest in Hellenic Reconstrution, and be a member of Hellenion?
Hellenion: Bylaws
Hellenion is a polytheistic reconstructionist organization with the intent of reconstructing the ancient ways for practice in the present based on academic …
http://www.hellenion.org/Bylaws.html
Hellenion: Mission Statement
What We Mean by Hellenic Pagan Reconstructionism. While the members of Hellenion are of course … As such, our concept of Pagan Reconstructionism entails: …
http://www.hellenion.org/Mission.html
Hellenion: Basic Adult Education
Hellenion’s Basic Adult Education curriculum is designed to provide an introduction to Hellenic Reconstructionism for our members. It covers five areas: …
http://www.hellenion.org/AdultEd.html
Cara
on Jun 27th, 2008
@ 1:04 am:
Thanks for asking, Tim.
You seem to want ownership of the term Hellenic Reconstruction – complete with the ability to define it however you wish and the power to decide who is and is not a HR. I’m fine with that. You go ahead. I’m not using the term anymore.
I’ll just keep honoring the Gods in my daily life and trying to live an ethical lifestyle. I’ll continue interecting with and exchanging ideas with fine groups like Hellenion, NA and Neokoroi – and a few others. If, at anytime, what I’m doing is not consistant with their guidelines, they will let me know. Until that time, I will continue to do what I’m doing and not worry so much about what it’s called. So far, there are no problems at all.
But thank you for your concern over my membership status.
Timothy Alexander
on Jun 27th, 2008
@ 2:27 am:
So then, you are stating (for the record) that Hellenion is no longer a Hellenic Reconstructionist organization despite its Articles of Incorporation, by-laws, mission statement, and the claims of the educational program? …or is it that you are a lapsed member who is a member for the sake of being a member?
Twinkle
on Jun 27th, 2008
@ 3:11 am:
Hello Cara….
I appreciate your response,
Can you show me where Tim twisted your words and pushed his agenda in his conversation with you? I’m not seeing it. that may have been how it *felt* to you, but maybe if you could quote it I could see what you’re talking about. Also, please show me where Tim’s facts are wrong, and please explain how they are wrong. The floor is yours…I am not going to do anything but read what you say, and weigh things for myself, then comment. I am open to having a dialogue.
In regard to Sannion and Erl Queen…perhaps you haven’t seen his webpage or read Erl_queens book. I believe she has another one coming out on it as well. They are putting themselves out there with their talk of Hellenismos, and as a result they are speaking on behalf of it and setting themselves up as authorities. When that happens, they have to expect to be challenged and criticized.
Neos Alexandria and Neokoroi have used Hellenismos in their articles, Recon is plastered all over the Neos Alexandria site. Neokoroi is confusing at best, misleading at worst by defining Hellenismos as Hellenic Reconstruction, and on then saying on the home page that they “tend to favor Reconstructionism in their approach to Hellenismos.” Perhaps you aren’t reading what’s on the site.
No one is telling you not to love these groups or worship your Gods. All we are doing is clearly defining what is Reconstruction, and what isn’t. This has never been about power, and it’s not even a definition that Tim and I have “made up”. Hellenion is clear, Elaion is clear, Hellenismos.us is clear, YSEE is clear with the definition of Hellenic Reconstruction. We all say the same thing. I suppose Tim and I are good targets because we are vocal on a number of venues…but it is not about us. If you cared enough to check these other websites instead of sticking to your perception of Tim and I as big meanies…you would see I’m telling you the truth.
If you are not Recon, you are not Recon. I don’t have an issue with that…who am I to tell you what to practice and what to believe? Your path is your path. The only issue I ever have with anyone is if they are using a label to identify what they practice…and it doesn’t apply.
I have never told anyone they are “doing it wrong”. What I have said is that a specific practice is not Hellenic Reconstruction. And once again, it’s about clarity, not power or control.
In terms of spreading hate and bitterness…look to some of the Neokoroi members LiveJournals and you will see hate and bitterness….directed at *me* and *Tim*, not the other way around.
I believe I have been called a lapdog and a parrot, a douchebag and some other savory comments by members of the organization that you are so staunchly defending. Please,…I have *never* stooped to that level, and I hope to the Gods that I never do.
And…you need to read up on Hellenic Reconstruction. It is the reconstruction of ancient Greek practice while keeping in mind that we live in the 21st century. It is a modern religion that uses modern innovation and adaptation in regard to practice….however it is still orthopraxic. This means it is a vital, very much alive religion that we live…it encompasses every aspect of our lives. It is highly spiritual, and very rewarding. If it’s not for you, it’s not for you….but apparently you know very little about it if you’re calling it a “dead religion.”
Twinkle
on Jun 27th, 2008
@ 3:27 am:
Oh! And I’m entirely too strong willed and independent to *follow* anyone. LOL
I am supportive of Tim and what he is saying because I agree with the vast majority of what he says.
It may surprise you to know that just two days ago we had a very heated debate and we did not agree at all.
Such is life and human relations.
Cara
on Jun 27th, 2008
@ 4:53 am:
Tim,
Thank you for so perfectly showing (yet again) how you are not interested in any type of exchange with people. That you enjoy attempting to twist words to make them fit some kind of inner diatribe that you wish to type out. Why do you do that? There is no need.
Twinkle,
Could you be a bit more condesending and passive/aggressive? *grin* Perhaps if you try to belittle me and insult me some more by intimating that I’m oh-so-ignorant you will feel even more strong willed and independent than you did when you and Tim had your HUGE FIGHT. The things you accuse others of are the very things that you do. Don’t you see that?
*******************
It’s been fun gang, but if we keep this up there are going to be a whole lotta Pagans with alcohol poisoning. And we don’t want that guilt on our heads, do we? No!
I’ve said what I wanted to, and for that, I thank you. There are many voices in Hellenismos and they have their place and they have value. These differing views are important, they enrich us, and they cause us to further define and refine what it is we do believe and why. So I agree that people should look around. Check out NA, check out YSEE, join some Yahoo lists, attend a Hellenion meeting/celebration/libation. Take in all these different ideas. But focus your time and energy on yourself and your relationship with the Gods. Worry about what you are doing and your own spiritual well-being and worry less about tracking other people and what they do and think.
But most of all…engage in worship. Don’t just talk about it, do it. Regularly, devotedly, and with joy.
Cara
Timothy Alexander
on Jun 27th, 2008
@ 11:41 am:
There is nothing to be twisted Cara. You stated you had absolutely no interest in Hellenic Reconstruction, but identified yourself as being a member of one the most well known Hellenic Reconstructionist organizations in the United States. It is a completely valid question to ask why you are a member of an organization when you do not support their mission, or is it a case of their mission changing and they have failed to update their information (some of which are legal documents linked to their 501(c)(3) status with the IRS)?
Twinkle
on Jun 27th, 2008
@ 2:52 pm:
Condescending and passive aggressive? All I have done is attempt to speak with you in a nonconfrontational and nonthreatening manner, as this seems to be your beef with Tim.
I am trying to see your side, but you offer nothing…only claim to be victimized.
I showed you *why* you were incorrect in your assumption that Tim and I have made up the defintion of Hellenic Reconstruction, and showed you why I believed in you were in error when you said that Neokoroi and NeosAlexandria have misrepresented themselves. At no time did I claim any malice or deliberate deception on their part.
I also provided an out for you…that perhaps you just haven’t read the information…which is not some great huge deal…only that you may not be aware of what it is I’m talking about.
In the end, no matter which way either Tim or I speak to you….you do not want to communicate…only get your licks in…and then storm off in a huff.
I wish you well.
Renee
on Jun 28th, 2008
@ 3:08 am:
“There is nothing to be twisted Cara. You stated you had absolutely no interest in Hellenic Reconstruction, but identified yourself as being a member of one the the most well known Hellenic Reconstructionist organizations in the United States. It is a completely valid question to ask why you are a member of an organization when you do not support their mission, or is it a case of their mission changing and they have failed to update their information (some of which are legal documents linked to their 501(c)(3) status with the IRS)?”
It seems pretty clear to me that Cara meant not that she had given up the religion, but that she simply wasn’t actively employing the particular phrase of “Hellenic Reconstruction”…one can practice the religion and not say those words.
Timothy Alexander
on Jun 28th, 2008
@ 5:09 am:
You may see it that way, but what I read was a person with a disdain for Hellenic Reconstruction who clearly stated she had no interest in “reconstructing a dead religion,” but is a member of one the most well known Hellenic Reconstructionist organizations in the United States. There seems to be of a conflict of interest there.
Renee
on Jun 28th, 2008
@ 5:25 am:
“You may see it that way, but what I read was a person with a disdain for Hellenic Reconstruction who clearly stated she had no interest in “reconstructing a dead religion,” but is a member of one the most well known Hellenic Reconstructionist organizations in the United States. There seems to be of a conflict of interest there.”
…or perhaps she meant that her religion is alive, her approach to Hellenic religion is not from an angle of archaeological necromancy. I would think that if the various groups with which she is affiliated had strong enough issues with her views that they would revoke her membership, and if they don’t agree with her, but don’t see reason to kick her out, then isn’t that their business? I know that quite a few pagan religious organizations don’t really give a rip what you do, believe or call yourself, as long as you behave according to their guidelines in their context.
But again, I don’t think she meant what you think she did.
Timothy Alexander
on Jun 28th, 2008
@ 5:37 am:
…her approach to Hellenic religion is not from an angle of archaeological necromancy? You probably should not speak for her, because this reads as though you are saying she rejects the base of a historic cultural religion. How do you separate the Hellenic from the Hellenic religion?
Renee
on Jun 28th, 2008
@ 6:06 am:
I am not saying that I speak for her, I am saying that that is how I understood her words, and that I didn’t think she was saying what you were saying she was saying.
That my first sentence in it’s entirety, I started out with “…or perhaps she meant…” Speculation.
I do not believe, based on what she has said that she rejects the historical basis. I do believe that her religion is alive and thriving, not a mere reenactment, pulling strings on a dead body to give the illusion of animation.
This is *how I understand what she has said*.
Twinkle
on Jun 28th, 2008
@ 11:40 am:
Or perhaps (speculation), she identified as Recon, read the blogs that Tim has been writing, and realized that she is not…and got pissy about it because she *thought* that Tim (and I) had made up the definition of what a Recon is and that we were simply pushing *our* definition of Reconstruction on everyone else. This would be evident in her saying to Tim: “You seem to want ownership of the term Hellenic Reconstruction – complete with the ability to define it however you wish and the power to decide who is and is not a HR. I’m fine with that. You go ahead. I’m not using the term anymore. ”
She is obviously someone who has no idea what Reconstruction is in the first place.
Twinkle
on Jun 28th, 2008
@ 11:50 am:
…Bickering aside…..
I think it is fairly clear to take from this whole conversation that *all* of us need to work harder to educate, inform and be clear on our use of terms and defintions.
Will there ever be a consensus of what Hellenismos is? Probably not….but I think it’s obvious that there are some that so badly want to be seen as Recon, but practice whatever they wish.
Timothy Alexander
on Jun 28th, 2008
@ 12:39 pm:
Twinkle,
When people are perfectly willing to argue that Hellenismos is little more than a lapel pin, I doubt there ever will be a consensus. You have groups like the YSEE, Elaion, and us here at Hellenismos.us that see Hellenismos as the Hellenic tradition reborn, and you have other groups that see Hellenismos as nothing but an accessory to self-spirituality. We see Hellenismos as the Hellenic religion, while others reduce it to merely Greek flavored Neopaganism.