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Timothy
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On Abortion (and Euthanasia)
12/04/09 at 13:28:17
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My Pro-Life stand has always been based on objective reasoning and the principle that one person's rights end where another person's begin. Therefore, a woman's reproductive rights end at the unborn's right to life. "Pro-Choice" Hellenes sometimes state that there is no historical precedent for such a position and therefore it is null. Hellenic ethics are based on virtue and reason, not historical precedence or ancient social norms, even if they are looked to for guidance, but I do need to thank Todd Jackson for providing this bit of historical precedent on a post from facebook...

This is a spinet of the Hippocratic Oath, written by Hippocrates in the late 5th century BC,:
    I swear by Apollo Physician and Asclepius and Hygieia and Panaceia and all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfill according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant:
    ...
    I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.
Another translation:
    I swear by Apollo the physician, and Asclepius, and Hygieia and Panacea and all the gods and goddesses as my witnesses, that, according to my ability and judgement, I will keep this Oath and this contract:
    ...
    I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion.
This is a religious oath and can be used to set a precedence for the Hellenic religion being Pro-Life (or at the very least a strong Pro-Life opinion existing) regardless of any other irreligious social norms.
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Timothy
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Re: On Abortion (and Euthanasia)
Reply #1 - 12/04/09 at 15:16:11
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To be "fair and balanced" I did find a counter point of view by Aristotle:
    ...no child is to be exposed, but when couples have children in excess, let abortion be procured before sense and life have begun; what may or may not be lawfully done in these cases depends on the question of life and sensation. ~ Politics 7.16
Based on the limited scientific understanding and medical opinion of the time, he placed the question of life and sensation at about 40 days after conception for males, and 90 days for females (The History of Animals 7.3).

I believe current medical evidence shows that sensation begins at 10 weeks.
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Re: On Abortion (and Euthanasia)
Reply #2 - 12/04/09 at 15:34:45
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Hellenismos has no dogma or doctrine.

There is no list of shall nots.

While I would agree that reasoning alone would imply a pro-life stance for the Hellene, I don't like the implication that all of us should be pro-life, based on the Hippocratic Oath, when there is an abundance of evidence that is contrary to it.
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Timothy
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Re: On Abortion (and Euthanasia)
Reply #3 - 12/04/09 at 15:58:12
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I've been doing some quick searches, and it also seems Greece did have laws limiting abortion only up until the moment of when the mother could feel the fetus move.

As far as other religious opinions... "Pythagoras also prohibited abortion, suicide, and promiscuity." (A History of Medicine: Greek Medicine by Plinio Prioreschi, pg 73) It would seem Pythagoras considered abortion wrong because the fetus is the moral equivalent of the child it will become.
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Timothy
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Re: On Abortion (and Euthanasia)
Reply #4 - 12/04/09 at 16:05:38
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Quote:
there is an abundance of evidence that is contrary to it.  

I'm actually very happy that Todd inspired this research. I have always relied on the reasoned application of the virtues to determine if and when abortion was ethical. I can agree that abortion as a necessary medical procedure for the health and welfare of the mother is very different from abortion as an elective procedure based on the desires of the individual. What I'm finding is that more religious opinion lean against abortion, while the Greek legal systems took a very 'legal but limited' approach, even restricting a woman from having an abortion if the father wanted the child.  
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Re: On Abortion (and Euthanasia)
Reply #5 - 12/04/09 at 16:50:29
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I am definitely pro-euthanasia, and rightly so after all…I am not investing in my longevity.
I’ll be honest, I am not condoning abortion, but I am not against it. Gods’ know that if some teenage tramp showed up at the door claiming that she was carrying my brother’s love child, then straight to the abortion clinic we would go. Or at least, that is the only alms she’d get from me. I have a rather old fashioned approach to bastard children I suppose.  
Oh gods, and that is a real concern…my brother is not as pious and prudent as I am. To imagine the humiliation, it would be years before we could show ourselves in public.
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Re: On Abortion (and Euthanasia)
Reply #6 - 12/04/09 at 16:55:03
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If that sort of shame was still prevalent in society we probably wouldn't even have need for this discussion.
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Re: On Abortion (and Euthanasia)
Reply #7 - 12/04/09 at 16:55:33
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Let me just clarify that I am being specific and not speaking in general…the circumstances surrounding conception of other’s and their lineages is not of my real concern…only that of my own immediate lineage. I detest being PC…
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Antinous
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Re: On Abortion (and Euthanasia)
Reply #8 - 12/04/09 at 16:57:17
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Timothy wrote on 12/04/09 at 16:55:03:
If that sort of shame was still prevalent in society we probably wouldn't even have need for this discussion.  

I guess sometimes I am too old fashioned for my own good, in this day and age…alas. I am not going to whore my dispositions for popularity mind you.
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Re: On Abortion (and Euthanasia)
Reply #9 - 12/04/09 at 17:59:22
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It's just such a hot button subject.   I find myself going all wonky because it sounds so "Christian", and yet as a Hellene I cannot help but be pro-life, because if we look at the source material on the subject - it *is* the most reasoned approach with historical precedence.  

I do have to admit that I am also pro-euthanasia.  If someone wants to die and is reasoned and without mental defect - that should be their business.

My knee jerk reactions to abortion though - are usually quite emotional and irrational.  When I look at it objectively, well...it is what it is.
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Timothy
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Re: On Abortion (and Euthanasia)
Reply #10 - 12/04/09 at 18:06:23
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Quote:
I do have to admit that I am also pro-euthanasia.If someone wants to die and is reasoned and without mental defect - that should be their business.

I think the prohibition is with inducing death, not allowing a person to die. I think those are too different issues with different moral implications.
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Re: On Abortion (and Euthanasia)
Reply #11 - 12/04/09 at 18:09:47
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Timothy wrote on 12/04/09 at 18:06:23:
I think the prohibition is with inducing death


Well, I am also pro physician assisted suicide.  I believe that under the right circumstances it can be ethically correct.

It could be argued that this is already being done in hospice care.
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Timothy
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Re: On Abortion (and Euthanasia)
Reply #12 - 12/04/09 at 18:14:40
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Quote:
It could be argued that this is already being done in hospice care.  

I think that is more making a person comfortable as they die. I still think it is a different thing when a person is in the process of dieing, and the pain management incidentally quickens the process.
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Re: On Abortion (and Euthanasia)
Reply #13 - 12/04/09 at 18:28:07
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Well, many Christians have turned that into a righteous issue as well.
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Re: On Abortion (and Euthanasia)
Reply #14 - 12/04/09 at 18:32:55
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Timothy wrote on 12/04/09 at 18:14:40:
I think that is more making a person comfortable as they die.  


Not really.  They pump them so full of morphine that it actually kills them.  It's not about being comfortable if the patient goes into a coma from the medication and dies.  It hastens death.  No different from physician assisted suicide in some situations.
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