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patron of athena
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going into the military
01/05/10 at 06:52:53
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I have always wanted to go to the US military academy at West Point and become a tank commander in the US army as a career. However I need to know some things first and I hope you guys can help answer them for me. I have researched a lot about pagans in the military but I haven't found anything about them at west point. can you answere these questions I have.
1. How are pagans treated at west pint?
2. What do I have put down on my dog tags for religion? Hellenist, Hellenism, or something else
3. how many pagans are there at west point?            
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Timothy
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Re: going into the military
Reply #1 - 01/05/10 at 13:35:55
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That's outstanding!! My Dad was a Tank Commander with the 11th Armored Cavalry during Vietnam.

patron of athena wrote on 01/05/10 at 06:52:53:
1. How are pagans treated at west pint?

I have no idea how you will be treated at West Point specifically. There are examples of people in the military using their position and authority to pressure non-Christians, but your freedom of religion is protected. Chaplains have a duty to "minister" to the religious needs of all those in the service regardless of religious affiliation, and there have been Christian Chaplains (usually of the Evangelical persuasion) who have found themselves in hot water for trying to convert.

patron of athena wrote on 01/05/10 at 06:52:53:
2. What do I have put down on my dog tags for religion? Hellenist, Hellenism, or something else

I don't know if you can, but there is no harm in trying. When I was in you could hand write your religion for your dog-tags, and it seems as long at it fit you were fine.

Ultimately what you need to remember is (1)  they must fully accommodate your right to believe or not to believe in whatever; (2) they must ensure that you are not punished for your beliefs or subjected to unwanted proselytizing; (3) they can not subject you to involuntary worship or prayers; (4)  they can not discriminate against any particular religious sect or denomination except when order and discipline are threatened.
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Re: going into the military
Reply #2 - 01/05/10 at 14:39:08
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I don't really know much about the military, but I am pretty sure at least now being a "pagan" in the military is fine. There was a website somewhere, but I tried googleing and couldn't find the one I though of. Ultimatly, as Timothy said, they cannot descriminate against you.

Just out of interest, how would devotions to the gods be different when someone goes into the military? I am guessing honouring Ares and Athena would be something to look at.
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Re: going into the military
Reply #3 - 01/05/10 at 14:52:25
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I don't believe there would be anything substantially different with everyday worship.

As with the beginning of any new undertaking, there should be a ritual with an accompanied vow in place. With patron of athena going into the West Point Military Academy, I would suggest a ritual and vow to Athena using a basic ritual outline... but imagine it like a BBQ with family and friends... have the sacrifice ritual performed at the very beginning, and the communal meal as a festive celebration.

If patron is to be deployed into combat, that is when I would do the sacrifice and vow to Ares.
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« Last Edit: 01/05/10 at 16:43:56 by Timothy »  

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Re: going into the military
Reply #4 - 01/06/10 at 04:38:25
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Thank you timothy for your help, I will be sure to keep though suggestions in mind but one other thing has come up in my mind. I thought of the possibility that I may get a very religious Cristian roommate that wont attempt to convert me but will still openly practice their religion and put a cross in the room and other such things and then I realized that that would bug me. I soon came to the conclusion that I may annoy my roommates by being to pagan. How should i practices Hellenism without annoying my roommates. Cool            
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Re: going into the military
Reply #5 - 01/06/10 at 12:27:33
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As a freshman cadet, I doubt you will have much room for personal items. You will have to keep statuary, if any, small scale and stowed away when not in use.  Other then that, I don't know if there is really anything you can do. Some people will be annoyed just because you are different, and others will feel threatened by your very existence... as if their beliefs rely on condemning all other religions. I wouldn't hide who you are, but I wouldn't make it glaringly obvious either. Basically, don't make a spectral of yourself. Moreover, be respectful of others and conduct yourself with virtue, self-discipline, and enthusiasm.

I don't want to put too much pressure on you, but you are one of very few (if maybe the only) Hellenic Polytheists in military service, and most likely the very first at West Point. You have a unique responsibility because you will be contributing to Military opinion regarding our religion. Even if they disagree with our religious practices, they will respect your Virtue and your aspiring to Hellenic Ideals. Hellenic Polytheists should have the reputation of who you want in your foxhole, watching your back, or leading you into battle.
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Re: going into the military
Reply #6 - 02/08/10 at 11:21:06
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I shall jump in here..I am in the Royal Australian Airforce, though I havent openly come out as an Olympianist.

At work i carry around prayer beads, they are in my pocket.
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Re: going into the military
Reply #7 - 02/08/10 at 13:26:32
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...prayer beads?
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Re: going into the military
Reply #8 - 02/08/10 at 14:31:54
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I make prayer beads myself. Some are modeled after “worry beads” I suppose you could say. Good for mantras and litanies.
Cheesy
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Re: going into the military
Reply #9 - 02/11/10 at 12:16:40
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I use them just to have something with me during the day. I don't use them to pray, so I guess that their not really "prayer beads". The ones I have represent the 12 Olympians, Mt. Olympus and Day/Night...They are there for me to feel the gods while at work etc etc...a personal thing.
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Re: going into the military
Reply #10 - 02/16/10 at 13:41:20
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Well, pagans are probably treated the same. It's the Muslims that are going to be treated differently. And if you cant put Hellenic on your dog tags then just put no reference, but just know that it doesn't matter if it's on your dog tag or not. As long as it's in your heart.
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Re: going into the military
Reply #11 - 02/17/10 at 13:03:33
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It is, in the Australian Military Dogs tags aren't really used. In fact there is no real way of recording religion. It doesn't seem to be a real issue with work.
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Re: going into the military
Reply #12 - 05/17/10 at 07:52:48
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Well as someone that was in the military for over 10 years, I will tell you this.  West point will be rough on the religious front, however you are usually aloud a religious item.  Once you are done however, you will find that at numerous bases you go you will find some sort of pagan community that is out in the open.  I can't recall a single base where there hasn't been one.  It is in the rule book, you are allowed to worship how you choose and they should give you time to do so.  You will learn about all of that at west point
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Re: going into the military
Reply #13 - 08/05/10 at 03:42:04
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I hope that everything turns out alright for you.
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Pete Helms
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Re: going into the military
Reply #14 - 08/05/10 at 11:23:59
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I'm in the Air Force right now. I'll tell you right now I've never had much of a problem being a Pagan in the military. When I came in, I was an eclectic Wiccan type. I was undisciplined, head-strong, and pretty naive. I enlisted, but due to my career field, I'm pretty close to the officer corps, and many of my high-school classmates from JROTC went on to become officers in various fields.

Religion should not be an issue, unless it interferes with good order and discipline. Most people are pretty quiet about religion as far as I've seen. Of course, every assignment, every installation is different. I'm sure if you've been considering this decision for a while, you've heard of the issues at the Air Force Academy. I hope you are not discouraged by this, for the AFA is in a unique position, being located in Colorado Springs. It's important to note that both Focus on the Family and Ted Haggard's church are located a few miles away, both very powerful Evangelical institutions.

As far as any Hellenists at West Point, I couldn't tell you. As to how they would be treated there, I would assume the same as anyone would. As Timothy said, as a Freshman it doesn't matter- it's pretty much blanket policy at all three military academies that Freshmen do not have much freedom; you would be in uniform 24 hours a day, you are not allowed off campus, you may not drive a car, and almost every hour of your day will be decided for you. The purpose of this is to shed your old identity as a civilian, break you down in to your raw, most basic human instinct, and rebuild you as the head of something bigger so that you may lead other human beings into combat, where your decisions will kill people, be it the enemy or your own men.

As alluded to above, your position as an officer would carry a very delicate and immensely important responsibility. This is especially important given your desire to become a combatant commander, in charge of troops on the front line of battle. Informal as it sounds, sit down with Athena, and sit down with Ares. Ask them, ask yourself, if you can take lives. Can you fight with the ferocity of Ares and keep a cool head like Athena? Do you have the mental stamina and emotional fortitude to complete seeming impossible tasks, to fight for a cause you may not believe in, and work in the most despicable and rotten conditions?

I pray you answer these questions honestly. In the end it is you who must live with this decision. I also think you should keep your options open. Do not limit yourself. There is more than one way to a gold bar. My personal advice is to check out ROTC at your local university. If I remember correctly, the first two years incur no military obligation if you are not on a military scholarship. If you have a degree, especially in some technical field desired by the government, you may be able to see an Officer Corps recruiter. Another possible avenue, and one I encourage, is to enlist for a few years, earn your degree, then apply for a commissioning program. The absolute best officers I've ever met were prior-enlisted; I've not been as fond of Academy grads.

Listen to everyone. Listen to vets' stories. Listen to pacifists and hawks alike. Listen to yourself. It's not for everyone. It's not for a lot of people. You could find yourself in and not liking it, in which case you could always get out when your time is up. Just remember, we're at war, and looking to leave them both half-finished. We'll be back there. You have to be ready. Good luck

~Pete
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